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| Source: friendlyatheist.com |
But how does Jesus feel about slavery?
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| Source: Thinking out loud |
Parable
This one showed up in my Twitter mentions in response to the post..
I hadn’t considered the notion that this could be one of the many parables that exist throughout this book. I'm beginning to realize that Jesus was a pretty big fan of these. I guess Jesus Christ wanted to make sure that people were paying attention to him. He realized that no one would get down on their knees and worship him if he spoke like everyone else. So, he developed a cryptic riddle-style way of speaking in order to add a little panache to his sermons. Kind of like a Jesus Christ version of Yoda..
So, the idea is that the slaves are actually a parallel to Christians (i.e. slaves to their church) and the “being beaten” part refers to going to hell if they don’t repent enough or do whatever it is that Christians are supposed to do to get to Heaven. Seems like a bit of stretch but it’s entirely plausible.
Indentured Servants
I’m not a History buff so I don’t really know too much about it. But it is said that these people weren’t slaves but actually “indentured servants” which if I am understanding this correctly means that they volunteered for the task so it’s ok to beat them (hmmm). I don’t know why anyone would volunteer for that kind of servitude. Especially, when the result was often many “stripes” or in some cases being beaten to death. The motive would have to be pretty severe, but hey I guess these were severe times.
Slavery
Taking the text literally and reading it as is, it pretty much sounds like Jesus Christ is delivering precise directions on how to administer corporal punishment to slaves. This astonishes me because based on what I have heard he doesn’t seem like the type to condone such an act in any fashion. There are a lot of good notes in his speeches but when you get to the part about slavery you can’t help but raise an eyebrow.
I can’t really rely on my own source of wisdom on this one. Especially since I don’t have any. I’ve read these scriptures as well as the surrounding text in several different translations and it could be either one of these. It really seems open to interpretation. If this book is really full of Holiness then it should be clear what God is trying to say. So, is God saying that slavery is ok? If so, why would he condone such an act? I’m completely boggled at this point, so you know what that means.. Yep, it’s poll time.
I wish you could read this one kindle book's chapter on this, it is so good! Anyway, there are a few things here you're bringing up and I'll respond more after I look a bit up. God does not condone slavery like we think of slavery, like what in the south US, or what he often hear of slavery today, even (in parts of the world). Slavery was indeed like indentured servitude, or even less like that and being part of the family. When you read other parts of the OT, you'll see that some "slaves" were very free, very highly respected, and could even inherit. One thing that people forget is that there were not institutions then like today. If you went into debt, what do you do? Back then, you could work it off. If you were captured during war, would you rather be killed or severely maimed (blinded) and enslaved (like the cultures around Israel), or become a servant instead? God had provision in the OT (I need to look up the verses) where they were not to be treated poorly, and if they ran away, they couldn't be forced to go back. In any case, Jesus is not condoning slavery, or even physical beating. He spoke in ways people could understand, and, people were also more minded for stories like that - for gaining deeper understanding through symbolic imagery. In Luke 12:47-48, which is quoted wrong in that sign - they provide it as a command, and it is NOT written that way - is talking about the relative rewards/punishments for the Lord's servants (and just any servants, but the "managers") based on how they act in this lifetime.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate that you are really taking time to think through this. As far as the passage you mention, I have a couple of thoughts/suggestions. Take them for what they're worth, or leave them if you don't think they make sense. *shrugs* The billboard there only shows two verses, and yeah-it sounds screwed up reading only those two verses. My suggestion though would be that you take a step back and read the verses around it, to see what the whole parable says. Sometimes (I don't claim always) it can clear things up a bit. The larger context of this parable talks about responsibility and knowledge, and basically the concept (at least, in my opinion) is that you're held responsible for what you know, and not "beaten" for something that you did that you didn't know was wrong. Hope that helps some. I'd just suggest reading the whole parable.
ReplyDeleteAnother observation I would like to make is that just because the bible references something doesn't mean that it references it as being right. Slavery was a fact of life in the Roman empire. That didn't mean that it was right to enslave people, that was simply what was going on. Anyone is welcome to disagree with me on this, but I think that Jesus, and the other writers of the bible, were dealing with the realities of their day, and some of what's in there is aimed at changing people's views from the inside, which would then change things externally. It takes longer, it's harder, but it's more lasting.
As far as the whole thing about Africans being the supposed descendants of the Canaanites, I've heard that too, and never understood how people could believe something so ridiculous. I suspect it was mostly because it allowed them to conveniently justify their oppression of others for their own selfish convenience.
Feel free to let me know what you think of this-these are just my first thoughts offhand, and I'd love to dialog more. Hope this clarified things some though.
Um . . . I don't know why the formatting is so weird . . . sorry.
ReplyDeleteThe one verse I mentioned, although it's in my other post too: “If
ReplyDeletea slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand him over to his master. Let him live among you wherever he likes and
in whatever town he chooses. Do not oppress him” (Deuteronomy 23:15-16).
Hmm.. well these verses that you have listed seem to paint a little bit of a different picture. Perhaps more toward the actual care and less toward delivering punishment. This gives me something to think about.
ReplyDeleteThe part about not oppressing him sounds like a plus.
ReplyDeleteWhat's the name of the book? I'd be interested to read this chapter that you speak of if it will help to shed more light on the subject.
ReplyDeleteYou actually bring up a good point. It could be that they are merely describing their environment and that is the way life was back then. Perhaps you could even substitute "slave" for "employee" to make it more up-to-date with the current time period. I don't know. But I agree, the fact that the the bible was used to enslave Africans is pretty lame and makes me wary of this book. Because it seems to me that anyone can use it and twist it to their benefit. And the majority will go along with it.. just because it's the bible.
ReplyDeleteYeah. I think I mentioned it to you once in an e-mail, but framing things with an eye to the historical really helps with understanding things. And even in different cultures, because there is a world of difference between slavery as practiced by Hebrews in the Old Testament vs. as practiced in the Roman Empire. But I'll refrain from rambling on that right now.
ReplyDeleteI can totally understand why that makes you wary of the bible, with the way people have misused it a ton. I don't have a pat answer. A lot of people don't take the time to think through stuff and the implications of it. But is that the fault of the book, or the fault of the people? Not trying to be a punk by asking that question, just a thought. I have a ton of respect for you for digging in, looking at things, and trying to think it through.
Wow, you really got some thoughtful responses to your post. I completely agree with reading the bible in historical context and not lifting verses out, as needed.
ReplyDeleteI think the story of Joseph being sold into slavery is germane to this topic.Thru difficult times God brings us thru as examples. Joseph (or Yusef in Hebrew) is a shining example of that.
ReplyDeleteI am very thankful to meet people that are willing to take time out of their day to deliver such wonderful insight. Each piece of wisdom gives me something to work with.
ReplyDeleteI am able to understand the correlation of that statement. So far the Genesis saga is the only portion I have been able to completely finish, although I am not entirely certain how historically accurate that segment of the bible really is.
ReplyDeleteHi Nowhere Man,
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you're continuing blogging, and your splitting up of your objections and going into them in more detail could be quite enlightening! :) Thanks again for your kind comments...
I just wished to make a quick reply to the post. It seems that the quote on the billboard picture is misquoted - it is very different to where it is said to have come from - Luke 12:47-48. The New Testament never contains the phrase (or any phrase that translates anything like the phrase) "Jesus said, 'Beat slaves who did wrong with many stripes, unless they knew not their wrong, then few stripes'"
The actual passage (with a few preceding verses for context, Luke 12:35-48), is
below:
35 “Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning,36 like servants waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. 37 It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes.Truly I tell you, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. 38 It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the middle of the night or toward daybreak. 39 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40 You also must be ready,because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”
41 Peter asked, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?”
42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
As can be seen, the instruction as it appeared on the billboard picture never appears in the passage. It is clear from verse 35, when Jesus addresses His listeners (certainly not just a certain group of people such as slaves (see v41)) that He tells them to be "LIKE servants" (in the sense of being ready for His return), and thus that the 'servant' refers to His disciples. 'Servant' by no means refers to 'slaves' in terms of a social institution; it refers to the listeners. It is used in the sense of being joyful servants (not forced slaves) of God.
Thus, in context (as any piece of writing must be in order to make sense), verse 47-48 also refers to servants (since the meaning would not change in this short space of writing). Thus, this refers to the idea that people will be fairly judged based on the amount of responsibility that they have been given - this is a warning against hypocrisy, and against those who misuse authority - very relevant for religious leaders.
As such, this passage seems to have nothing to do with condoning slavery. I hope that this little input is helpful; I am not certain of every part of it, but I do hope that it is at least interesting. Well done for the post - and we hope to see many more in the future! :)
All kind wishes,
Elliot :)
Sorry the quote from Luke is a little blocky - see here for a better version:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2012&version=NIV
Sorry the post above was slightly unnecessarily wordy. The point of it is:
ReplyDeletea) The billboard misquotes the passage
b) In the actual passage, the 'servant' refers to the listeners (see v35; his listeners are to be "like servants"), especially Jesus' disciples.
c) Therefore, it has absolutely nothing to do with the treatment of slaves, since His listeners were not slaves. It doesn't even refer to literal slaves. It, in fact, is not an instruction to beat anybody, but a warning of the consequences of such vices as selfishness, for example, which go against God's will that we ought to love one another.
Thanks for the info. I am beginning to realize that just about anyone can put their spin on this book. Maybe that is what makes it so popular. That's why I am trying to take the time to really understand what I am reading instead of just blowing through it. And whatever issues I come up against, I'd rather deal with them now than later. For me, it's better to just get that part out of the way.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the the reply - your way of doing it sounds like a very good idea! :) I would agree that anyone can read into the Bible whatever meaning they want (as they can for other texts) - although I would say that there is an 'objectively true meaning' (i.e. the intended meaning by God) that can be discovered, which people are coming closer to, but no-one (especially not myself!) have yet got the full picture of, just as people haven't yet got a full picture of how the universe works... It's an exciting task finding out though! :)
ReplyDeleteAs Elliot pointed out, the billboard you'vew referenced is misquoting the passage. Jesus was not giving instruction in how to administaer corporal punishment. Rather, He was using an example that they could relate to, from their culture, to demonstrate that greater understanding carries greater responsibility.
ReplyDeleteThe Bible does talk a lot about slavery, simply because slavery was a cultural reality of the time.
Does the Bible condone abusive slavery? Certainly not! When the nation of Israel was enslaved to Egypt, God's response was to redeem and deliver the Israelites from the bondage of slavery! You can pick up that story in Exodus...following Joseph's family coming down to Egypt for provision during the 7-year famine, at the end of Genesis.
Interesting. Misquoting the bible seems to be a common practice. Sometimes, it's difficult for me to tell what is true or false. I guess I'm glad I took the time to dissect this portion because I really didn't have a clue. Thanks for the input.
ReplyDelete"Misquoting the bible seems to be a common practice."
ReplyDeleteSadly, too true, my friend...
While you're on the topic of slavery, it might be worth your while to read Philemon, one of the shortest books in the Bible. In this brief New Testament letter, the Apostle Paul is asking a slave owner, Philemon, to forgive his runaway slave, Onesimus, and to accept him, not as a returned slave, but rather as a brother.
ReplyDeleteThe letter appears to have been hand-delivered to Philemon by Onesimus, himself, per Paul's instructions.
Within the letter, Paul asks Philemon, if he has anything against Onesimus, or feels that Onesimus has wronged him or owes him anything, to please charge it to Paul's account, and Paul will repay him in full.
Interesting. I'll add that.
ReplyDeleteOh wow, that was short. How lovely. I do believe that this has become my favorite saga in this book. That Onesimus fellow must have really made an impact.
ReplyDeleteYes, from what little we're told, it would appear Onesimus ran away from his master, Philemon, in Colossae, and fled to Rome, where he searched out the Apostle Paul, who was imprisoned there. Paul and Onesimus, apparently, became quite good friends...
ReplyDeleteIs he mentioned again in any other scriptures or is that the extent of his role? Kind of a bit part there and a cliffhanger.
ReplyDeleteThe only other place I know of is Colossians 4:7-9, where Onesimus is mentioned in passing.
ReplyDeleteIt appears that Tychicus and Onesimus traveled, together, from Rome to Colossea, bearing two letters from Paul. One letter was to the church in Colossea and the other was the personal letter to Philemon.
So, yes, a bit of a cliff-hanger for us, in terms of surviving correspondence related to Onesimus.
It is interesting, though, that in his letter to the church in Colossea, Paul specifically addresses how slaves are to treat their masters and how masters are to treat their slaves, "Masters, grant to your slaves justice and fairness, knowing that you too have a Master in heaven." (Colossians 4:1)
Also, in Colossians 3:11, Paul stated that for Christians "...there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all."
One can't help but speculate that Paul was likely thinking of Onesimus while penning those words to Onesimus' home church.
Interesting. Sounds like an impeccable relationship indeed. Perhaps even changing certain views on slavery. Thanks for sharing.
ReplyDeleteMy pleasure!
ReplyDeleteYou have actually stopped just short of the punch line of a parable which is fairly easy to understand: to whom much is given much is expected. The notion of Christians being slaves to Christ is woven all through the New Testament, which teaches that Jesus bought and paid for us by his death on the cross for our sins.
ReplyDeleteYou have actually stopped just short of the punch line of a parable which is fairly easy to understand: to whom much is given much is expected. The notion of Christians being slaves to Christ is woven all through the New Testament, which teaches that Jesus bought and paid for us by his death on the cross for our sins.
ReplyDeleteIndeed, these concepts seem to elude me until explained. It could be that my polluted soul is rejecting the Holiness of this book. Although, these parables are very colorful I would personally prefer a more direct approach but then again I guess it wouldn't be the bible if it wasn't romanticized.
ReplyDeleteParable is from Greek para--beside, and ballo--to throw. To throw beside for the purpose of comparison. Parables illustrate by comparing unfamiliar things like God's kingdom and ways with familiar things like farming and making money. Those who are familiar with God and His ways have an easier time understanding parables than those who are unfamiliar. Speaking in parables was a way of communicating which affirmed those who trusted Jesus while going past those who rejected Him.
ReplyDeleteSlavery was an unquestioned way of life in Biblical times, as was the beating of slaves. There was no question of an errant slave receiving a beating. The question was how much punishment was deserved. The one who sinned in ignorance was deserving of less punishment than the one who delliberately disobeyed.
I see, it's a sort of sacred language among worshipers. Kind of like that secret handshake to be in the club. It's not really meant to reach out to Heathens, but to strengthen the hold over those that already believe him. Interesting.
ReplyDeleteAnother good parable is in Luke 18:9-14. I'd be interested to see how that one strikes you, Nowhere Man.
ReplyDeleteWell, based on my understanding of what a Pharisee is so far, it's some sort of wannabe Christian. But somehow they're always screwing it up by putting there own spin on it. In this case, it would seem as though the fault can be summed up in pretty much one word.. hubris.
ReplyDelete