Kati gets right down to business. In a nutshell, she wants to know how to convert a Heathen. I don’t mind responding to this because now that I am in my little “seeking” phase I am actually on the search for those with the ability to do so. Ironically, this has become a far more difficult task than I initially anticipated.
Keep in mind, this comes from someone with no religious background whatsoever. I dunno, somehow I managed to completely dodge that bullet. So, I can only answer these questions from my own personal point of view. I would say that perhaps it is a little of both. The comprehension of the message as well as it’s acceptance. These concepts are very difficult to fully embrace when there seem to be so many contradictions. And the many different translations do not help, either. Especially when they are all so densely encoded in “Christianeze”.
Also, and probably most the difficult, it will eventually be necessary to address the fact that this book is not perfect. The notion that this book was forged by the hand of a deity is debatable. Divinely inspired.. perhaps. Divinely written.. unlikely. If God is perfect, and he wrote this book, then this book should be perfect. But the bottom line is that this book was written by men, and men have flaws, and so does this book. To say that parts of this book are “extreme” is an understatement. You’re going to have a very difficult time trying to convince someone of reasonable intelligence that there was actually a talking snake. But who knows, maybe these wild fantasies were meant to be more like moral-teaching fables. That kid Joseph could be like “The Little Engine That Could”. Working his way up through perilous odds, then somehow in the end he still finds it in his heart to forgive his brothers for their treachery. Although, not before playing a pretty cruel joke which in my opinion was the best part.
So, rather than sweep the errors under the rug like most Christians I encounter attempt to do, go ahead address them. You might as well get that part out of the way. Because as with any group that exhibits such strong symptoms of cult-like behaviour, your Heathen is going to have apprehensions about joining your club..
Although there are a host of concerns associated with becoming a Christian, I can pretty much narrow mine down to what I call The Three S’s:
Barriers to Becoming a Christian
1. Subjugation
The very notion of getting on your knees and worshiping anything is not a very appealing concept to a Heathen. As far as I am concerned, it’s just another form of slavery, which seems to be a recurring theme in the bible and something that even Jesus himself endorses..
 |
| Source: Thinking out loud |
Shame on you, Jesus. Doesn’t sounds very Christlike to me. No gold star for you, buddy.
2. Segregation
It has recently come to my attention that God loves everybody except for people that are gay..
I’m not gay, but I am not going out of my way to create problems with any people that are. You can get married to a toaster oven for all I care. The way I see it, stay out of my business and I’ll stay out of yours. Everyone is happy. I guess God doesn’t see it that way. So much for unconditional love.
3. Sanity
Or lack thereof rather, and probably the most critical of the three. I sometimes wonder if the cost of becoming a Christian demands the complete release of one’s faculties..
Now, I don’t know exactly what is going on here. There are always two sides to every story. But it seems to me that someone may have taken the bible a little too literally. However, what serves as it’s Achilles heel also makes it a curiosity. I have met some Christians that truly never seem to have a bad day. It’s like nothing bothers them at all. I have even had Christians themselves tell me that it is like being on some sort of “drug”, and I can often see the correlation. There will be days that I observe Christian behaviour and I can’t help but think to myself..
..and it only serves to fuel my curiosity. However, when faced with the question of how much of my own relative sanity I am willing to compromise in order to experience this eternal bliss that Christians seem to share; I am only able to deliver one response: none.
In closing, while attempting to deliver this biblical message to your Heathen, try to rely more on the logic and reasoning portions of this book (if there are any) rather than superstition. The whole threat of damnation by an ambiguous omnipotent being is likely to have little effect. It is difficult for someone to fear something that quite possibly does not exist. Also, work towards making it an exchange of ideas rather than a target for recruitment as I all too often encounter. I sometimes wonder if Heaven doesn’t award some sort of commission based on a Christian’s conversion rate. Nobody really wants to just be preached at without consideration. And the truth is that none of us really has all of the answers. So, we might as well share what we’ve got. I hope some of this helps. Best of luck in your endeavors, something tells me your going to need it.
If anyone else has questions about the bible or religion in general feel free to Ask A Heathen. I can also be found at my Q&A site ..
You can ask, but I will be upfront and honest right now in saying that the answer will most likely be “I Don’t Know”. The more I try to understand this book, the more it perplexes me. And at the end of the day.. I’m just a Heathen.
I sometimes wonder if we aren't some intergalactic teenagers science experiment gone terribly terribly wrong. "Flush that stinky thing Adam." "Yes mom." Can anyone hear a big bang?
ReplyDeletethanks for answering! I'm going to read this carefully and get back to you... But I'm glad to have met someone willing to talk about these things openly
ReplyDeleteNo problem. I don't have a problem with discussing things. People are people regardless of theology.
ReplyDeleteWhat's scary is I find that notion to be just as plausible as the God theory.
ReplyDeleteok, just read it. Thanks so much! I asked you the question specifically because you make it clear on this blog that you're doing this reading-the-Bible thing from a background that didn't pre-condition you to believe certain things about it. That's why I like your blog: it's fascinating to me to see how someone with a fresh set of eyes reacts to words that have become, possibly, too familiar to me. You interpret them in a way so different from how I would and I think that's pretty cool.
ReplyDeleteAre you looking for someone to respond to your three S's, or are you just making a point with them? If you want I can tell you how I personally would respond to those very valid qualms (though I couldn't pretend to represent Christians as a whole in my answer).
It's interesting to me that you think the multiple translations make things worse. With your approach I would have expected you to be the type of person who appreciates as much data/perspective as possible. So I guess the job of translators is even harder than I thought! (The concept of "bible translation" is what inspired me to ask you this in the first place.)
Btw, I totally hear you on the giving-up-sanity thing. I actually struggle with that a lot myself, every day.
So, follow-up question: When I think about the message of the Bible, I
don't think in terms of its logical arguments (find them too multi-sided
and feel we could argue just about anything from scripture) and nor do I
think in terms of salvation (for exactly the reasons you mentioned).
Rather I think in terms of how it presents to us a God who loves us and
who we can love back. How would that line of reasoning work for you?? (I
suspect this Christian version of crack cocaine might actually be the
experience of being in love.)
And final proposition (for now): I suspect no human being is able to "convert a heathen". The entire concept of "faith", to me, means that I believe that it is only heathens who convert themselves, but pushed to do so by God. Not by a person. All us Christian people can hope to do is to help the heathen (you?) to make your own decision by, for example, providing a good quality translation of the Bible, I suppose?
Hello Malinda. Thank you for taking the time from work to deliver this wonderfully detailed and incredibly insightful response. It has a lot of interesting information in it that I will be including research. It has also given me a lot to think about and I will definitely be keeping all of this in mind along my journey. And I agree, faith must be built on a solid foundation. I always want to make sure that I am on steady ground.
ReplyDeleteThanks, and I'm glad to be part of the discussion. I look forward to reading more of your blog!
ReplyDeleteThe added translations in no way make this book any more attractive. It only serves to increase the load. Mainly because I am finding that the story just gets more and more twisted. Perhaps someone with the luxury of time to spare would find it appealing. I, however, have more than enough real world issues to keep me occupied. Besides, I do not see why a book of such Holiness should require so many interpretations. One God = One book. If it is the truth then everyone should be able to agree on it. I would be interested to hear your response to the Three S’s. Any and all input is appreciated.
ReplyDeleteIf God loves me that’s fine. Hi-five. He’s still in Heaven and I’m down here on Earth and let’s face it, long distance relationships never work out. Until otherwise specified by the Big Man himself I will have to assume that I am on my own.
The concept of faith to me is a different one. It doesn’t require conversion to any organization. It’s not something that you should have to outsource at all. Not to an all-powerful deity. And it doesn’t come from a book. I see being hooked on religion as not much different than being hooked some sort of medication. True strength comes from within. It’s up to you to dig deep enough to find it.
In short, the bible is just a tool. Like any tool it can be used for good or bad and I see it being used for both. The message does not lie in the text but what comes after. Actions speak louder than words.
Your substitute for subjugation seems viable, although I must admit it doesn't really do much by way of adding any sort of appeal. Although I will admit, there are days that I wish I could step into a magic building and clasp my hands together to make all of the pain go away. But I know that in reality I cannot expect that to happen. In order for people to live a life filled with joy, there have to be people that suffer. In order for there to be rich there have to be poor. It is the law of the universe. So even if he is up there he has made it plainly evident that I am abandoned. Either way I'm on my own. Thank you for your honesty in all of your responses, Kati. Above all else I respect candor, and you have made it pretty clear that you don't hold back. I appreciate that.
ReplyDeleteHey Wanton Soul:
ReplyDeleteI'll just jump right in . . .
It's unfortunate that most of us don't understand ancient Hebrew and Greek. We rely on translations of the Bible. No translation is perfect but none that I know of are so imperfect that they convey, overall, an erroneous interpretation of the Bible. One interpretation might try to soften 'slave' into 'servant' or 'lake of fire' into 'hell' but these are minor points. The 'spirit' of the Bible is maintained despite occasional translation biases.
But the whole question of comprehension versus acceptance is irrelevant if we assume intelligent, educated, unindoctrinated, adults as a starting point. If you want to assume as your starting point, young children whom you can indoctrinate, or people on the bottom half of the I.Q. bell curve, then you stand a much better chance of creating Christians . . . and it won't even matter if they understand or have even read the Bible. After all, most Christians have never read the Bible.
And there's a reason why most Christians haven't read the Bible. Other than being boring, it's also provides the best evidence against the goodness of God. Indeed, if you believe the Bible is true, then you must accept that the God you worship is abhorrent. Isaac Asimov said that, "Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.", and he's absolutely right. EVERYBODY SHOULD READ THE BIBLE WITH AN OPEN MIND. The issue of slavery, which you brought up, clearly shows that God endorses it in BOTH the Old and New Testaments. Both the warrior God of the Old Testament and the loving God of the New Testament uphold slavery. That's all we need to know to realize that God is NOT the source of morality . . . that he is far from perfect. Period.The fact is that the Bible appeals to our irrationality -- not our rationality. I preys on our fears, guilt, insecurities and ignorance in much the same way that advertisers do. The strength of the Bible is not its sterling logic -- it's the predatory emotional and psychological manipulations that are its strength. An advertiser will take weaknesses and turn them into strengths. Oil companies are portrayed as protectors of the environment and small business. Public relations firms will perform surveys and focus groups to determine your subconscious wants and desires instead of your conscious thoughts and ideology because it's easier to manipulate the subconscious mind than the conscious mind. Politicians rely on the findings of these PR firms to fashion their speeches and even their policies.
Freethinkers perceive superstitious, religious, people as irrational. And they are. Because it's the irrational in us that power-mongers use against us to control the masses.
All your arguments about slaver, Malinda, are pure bunk: apologist pap. You can't have it both ways. Either God is the source of morality or he isn't. Either God is perfect or he isn't. Either the Bible is divinely inspired and every word is true or it isn't. If God is good, then it is good to uphold slavery. The "culture" has nothing to do with it. God's morality is not a candle in the wind: subject to culture or relative to prevailing practices. It's obvious -- unless you're PURPOSELY BLIND TO IT -- that if God's morality grows outdated, it was NEVER real or true to begin with. Do you really think humanity should roll back our moral progress to align it with God's? If God is perfect and the source of morality, then it is your Christian duty to fight for the renormalization of slavery.
ReplyDeleteAnd your other apologia on this topic is laughable. Jesus says to beat slaves in proportion to their wrongdoing (disobedience). I don't know what kind of family you come from but if being a member of your family means suffering violent subjugation, then maybe your values have been corrupted by scripture -- which, by the way, is the logical outcome of practicing a flawed morality undeservingly venerated as objective truth.
And quit stretching the truth! Freeing slaves after 7 years applied only to JEWISH slaves (those who sold themselves into bondage because of extreme poverty or debt). But the majority of slaves were NOT Jewish. Most were Canaanites. Non-Jewish slaves were slaves for life: property that could be passed from generation to generation.
So the slaves of the Biblical era were property for life and subject to beating and even killing. How's that better than other forms of slavery?
Dive right in anytime, my friend. I actually find this to be a very potent remark. I'm sure that you would consider something like this light work but for me it delivers a lot of insight and really gives me a few things to think about. I don't want to be one of those people that reads this book like a software license, just scrolling right to the bottom and then clicking "I accept". I want to really understand what's going on here (which is probably why it will take me 113 yrs to read). It could be true that many Christians fail to truly dissect what they are reading, because if they did it seems like they would have a lot more questions. I'm still a novice and I am already completely boggled. Yet those Christians that I have encountered seem to fully accept it with no qualms at all. It must take a certain type of mentality..
ReplyDeleteI've been wondering about the indentured servant part. Volunteering to be beaten/killed seems a a bit extreme. The motive would have to be pretty severe.
ReplyDeleteDuring my heathen (cloaked in religious garb) youth, I became depressed often. Life was a big bummer. Hypocrites, bullies, cliques, etc. Living was just bleh, bleh, bleh. If there were good times why didn't they last? Time goes on and even if I did become wealthy, and have all that life could offer, kaboom! I lose it all by dying, what's that all about? Since life for me was a roller coaster ride of ups & downs, mostly downs, why should I force myself to live if impending death is just eternal sleep/nothingness? I needed answers but where are they? Why do people harm one another? Why do I harm others, especially those I should love the most? I have found the bible has those answers. I have been a Christian since 1988 and have encountered many views but the Bible has won out time and again. I find the Bible to set forth things as they really are. One thing it does, it lays open for the whole world to see that even people who were believers failed at times and some failed miserably. It's something I can relate to as opposed to some mystical book that tells me I need to climb a mountaintop and meditate on my (or someone else's) belly button.
ReplyDeleteI too experienced a period where I tortured myself with many questions and no answers. However, I had found in the end that not giving a damn had won over. The fact that you say this book have given you the answers to those types of questions intrigues me into wanting to proceed further. Thank you for this very insightful response.
ReplyDeleteHi Nowhere Man, :-)
ReplyDeleteI went to your blog
after you commented on a post on mine, and I've had a look at some of
both of your blogs, and I have to say, they are impressive. This
blog contains a wonderfully moving and honest desire and seeking
after truth, while your other blog contains powerful existentialism –
your thoughts are so deep and powerful, with your compassion for
others together with what sounds like deep dissatisfaction. Your
replies to comments are so polite and kind; even when you may
disagree, you try to stay positive – you are truly a kind person
and a model for many similar blogs... :-) Well done for embarking on
these, which must be very painstaking to regularly complete! :-)
I am a Christian,
albeit relatively young at 19, studying BA theology and, since your
subject matter is of immense interest to me, I though that I'd input
some of my own views about the Christian view of God's plan for the
world, which I acknowledge most certainly are not perfect, if this is
OK... :-) I've gone a bit over the top and written over 3000 words
of stuff addressing various points, some of which may not be very
good but I thought that it might be helpful – if it would be, I can
post it in a comment if you would like, and if you would prefer me to
leave it, that's fine, and I could use it elsewhere... Which would be
better for you? :-)
Thanks for all the
insights regardless – and keep going! You're a wonderful person
with so much value to offer the world! :-)
Kindest wishes,
Elliot
Hello Elliot. Thank you for the wonderful comment and taking the time to read a portion of my blog(s). Indeed, it is very difficult for me to post regularly given the limited means that are available to me but I do my best to try and keep them up to date I'm not sure the comments will be able to house a 4,000 word response. However, if you think that you may be able to find a way to excise some of the highlights and condense them into a more form-fitting summary, I would definitely be very interested to read your point of view which I'm sure is very insightful :)
ReplyDeleteHi Nowhere Man, thanks for responding. I posted the response on my blog, after modifying it slightly, if this is OK (please tell me if it isn't, and I'll take the blog post down). It gives some of my views (which I fully acknowledge may not all be correct) on some of the issues you've brought up in your blog posts, and I hope that it is at least slightly interesting, and a contribution to the discussions. :-) It is here, in case of interest (sorry about the excessive length...):
ReplyDeletehttp://rationalchristianworldview.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/formulating-rationally-acceptable.html
Best wishes to you in everything,
Elliot :-)
Sure, I'll check it out.
ReplyDeleteYeah, the indentured servants were Jews who "sold themselves" to other Jews to pay off debts or escape poverty. By law, they were manumitted (set free) after 7 years. Obviously, these Jewish "slaves" were more respected than the chattel slaves. These "real" slaves were most often acquired as "booty" from wars and were legally considered to be physical property. Chattel slavery is chattel slavery. Just as in the American South before Emancipation, Jews could do whatever they wanted to their chattel slaves: beat them, rape them, whatever. There is NO basis for thinking they were somehow better off.
ReplyDeleteYou really know your history as well as the bible in detail. Yet, you appear to be completely immune it. Another aspect that drives my curiosity. The Holiness should affect everyone that encounters it not just a select group of people. Interesting.
ReplyDelete